Technical question - Daniels retrograde mechanism

[Jere Mihalov]

Since the forum has been a little quiet, I thought I would throw out a question I had pondered over and never quite figured out. George Daniels describes a retrograde hour mechanism in his book, Watchmaking (shown below). I can follow how this mechanism works, the minute-wheel pawl advances the coaxial star wheels which advance the hour rack one tooth per hour, the missing tooth on the top star wheel allows the rack to return to I.

However, searching for an actual photo of a Daniels retrograde hour mechanism yielded only one photo (below, click to enlarge). Perhaps someone on the forum has another? I found this one in Daniels/Clutton's book "Watches". It is somewhat different than the mechanism described in "Watchmaking" and I don't quite follow it.

Rack A and B appear to be fixed together, Rack B mating with the partial toothed hour wheel. Rack A appears to have ratchet teeth, but it isn't clear how this rack is advanced or released. It appears to have a return spring (E) and to be mated with lever C which is held in tension with spring D. Lever C is, perhaps, the tricky part, having three arms.

Any thoughts from those of you that think about such things?

Jere

[Curtis]

Hi Jere,

Thanks for the post... please keep them coming.

An answer is in the works from an "in the know" perspective.

Cheers,

Curtis

[Curtis]

Dear Jere,

Sorry, but the Daniels/Clutton image is a poor reproduction and so I am finding it difficult to comment. However, your post has brought back many fond memories of my time working with George Daniels on the Millennium project. One day he came into his workshop and asked me if I would service a watch that he had made in 1973. The piece in question was a gold pocket watch, one - minute spring detent chronometer tourbillon with a retrograde hour hand.

As you could imagine this was a fantastic opportunity to work on one of George’s masterpieces and an experience that I will not forget for a very long time. The thing that I like about these hand made watches are their technical beauty, elegance and a real depth of quality, which is something that I feel is a shame has never been carried on into the wristwatch, though I suppose this is hardly surprising due to it being designed for a completely different market and using mass production techniques.

After almost thirty years of life the oils were thickened and the mechanism required a simple clean, reassembly and lubrication. The silver engine turned dials protective lacquer had discoloured and required stripping, re-bleaching and inking of the numerals. This may sound a daunting task today because the knowledge is all but lost but when one has the necessary experience it is a relatively simple and rewarding task because on completion you see the dial as the maker had originally intended – perfect! N.B Only dials made of either gold or silver with hand engraved numerals and lettering can be restored in this way.

I have always thought it such a shame to see great pocket watches with fine but discoloured silver engine turned dials passing through the auction houses and collections which remain sad and untouched in view of ‘retaining their originality’. To me this view is, to quote a very English phrase, ‘absolute poppy cock’ when in reality the makers of these fine watches would turn in their graves at the very thought of their creations being neglected in such away.

Anyway, I feel as if I have drifted slightly and so below have attached several images I took of the watch which include an image of the under dial work and retrograde mechanism. I hope that you enjoy them!

Best regards,

Roger Smith

Isle of Man

[Jere Mihalov]

I can not express my appreciation enough for the response! It didn't answer the question, per se, but I am more than satisfied. Looking at the photos and the Sotherby's Retrospective catalog, the one Roger restored was Daniels No. 8 (made for Gerald Saunders, hence the unique 'S' seconds hand counter weight) and the watch depicted in "Watches" appears to be either No. 3, 4 or 5. So I can only assume that George had improved upon the earlier mechanism for the one used in No.8 (et alia?) and that which is described in "Watchmaking." Hence, my original impetus for asking the question is somewhat moot, in my own mind at least.

I am great admirer of Daniels work and style, and following in a similar vein, Roger Smith's for that matter. I now have some fresh material to ogle and study.

Jere

[ei8htohms]

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[Paul Loatman]

Hi Jere,

Why not show everyone here the motion works you're working on.

You've been doing some pretty amazing work but i just barely found out about it through your website.

[Jere Mihalov]

I had started making the retrograde motion work, and after struggling with it for a while, I set it aside. I had moved on to the countless other things that need making, but intend to go back and figure that thing out. I haven't thought about it recently, but I think some of the tooth angles just weren't quite right. The ratchet teeth interaction was rather coarse, and did not maintain good spring tension throughout the full range of movement.

Click here for Retrograde hour work

In the interim I made a conventional type of motion work, it is basically finished. The minute/setting arbor needs to be polished to its final mating in the cannon pinion, the latter and the hour wheel need the seating for the hands turned as well. This will be done once the dial thickness is firmly established.

Click here for Conventional hour work


As to "amazing work," I certainly appreciate the compliment. As you well know, it is a labor of love...

The main page to my website can be found here:
Watchmaking.Weebly.com

Regards,
Jere

[jadewatchmaker]

After studying the pictures, I have one question. Setting is apparently accomplished with the square in the middle on the back side of this watch. Is this part of a simple post running to the cannon pinion or is there a bit more to it's arrangement?

[Jere Mihalov]

It is a fairly simple arrangement. The setting/minute arbor (with square hole for the setting key) runs through the center pinion and has a slip-friction fit. It has a tight friction fit to the cannon pinion. So during running, the center pinion carries the arbor and therefore drives the cannon pinion. During setting the arbor is able to slip within the center pinion and turn the cannon pinion.

Jere

[Jere Mihalov]

I thought I would post an update to this thread since I made some progress with making the retrograde hour motion work.

I made a test plate and started fitting the parts I previously made to it. After a long night of delicate filing and tweaking, the mechanism is functioning correctly

Now I just have to get around to fitting it to the actual movement...

Jere

[Ophiuchus]

Beautiful work Jere. I'd love an animation of it running. Or perhaps a YouTube video is in order?

[Paul Loatman]

Glad you got it to work Jere, i'm sure it'll look awesome in the finished product.